Gary Dollner (Editor) Interview

What...the FUCK?! Like the Priest meeting Hilary for the first time, Chrissie and Allie are beyond thrilled to chat with the Emmy Award-winning editor of Fleabag, Gary Dollner. Hear what he found to be the most difficult scene to edit, why he became fixated on Brett Gelman eating a green bean, and his reaction to seeing Dollner Ave. as the bus destination in the final scene--along with much, much more that may or may not include a description of Andrew Scott in swim shorts.

Transcript

Chrissie: Thank you so much for joining us, Gary! Like I said, we are so thankful that you're being so generous with your time to talk with us.

Allie: Yeah, I'm just excited to hear about your experiences and dive in.

Gary Dollner: It's nice to know there's a lot of fans out there.

Chrissie: Yeah. We started this podcast back in August and we had both finished season two and were just talking about it non-stop. Then, somebody was like ... or actually, what was happening, we were talking to our friends about it who weren't as big fans.

Allie: Or just hadn't watched it.

Chrissie: They were like, "Why don't you all talk to each other about this and record it?"

Gary Dollner: So, you did.

Chrissie: We did.

Allie: We did.

Chrissie: We had looked for a podcast and there weren't any, so we were like, "Well, I guess we're just going to have to do it ourselves."

Allie: Jumped on it. Yeah. Now we have thousands of friends all over the world that we can bother.

Chrissie: Yeah, exactly.

Gary Dollner: Fantastic.

Chrissie: Yeah, so what we did, basically, we've been going through each episode of the show and talking about it in a lot of detail. We sent you our questions ahead of time, I'm sure you were-

Gary Dollner: Yes.

Chrissie: ... a little daunted by the level of detail.

Gary Dollner: Yes, it's very impressive.

Allie: That is one way to put it.

Chrissie: Oh, that's nice. We're going to put that on our banners. [Laughs] We first wanted to congratulate you on all your awards that you've won for this season.

Allie: Yeah, that's exciting.

Chrissie: Especially the Emmy.

Gary Dollner: Thank you very much.

Chrissie: We were saying this is the first year we've been watching the editing category with bated breath, and had a vested interest in who won.

Allie: Absolutely.

Chrissie: I mean, that whole weekend must have been so exciting. Can you tell us what that was like for you and your team?

Gary Dollner: It was fantastic. I mean, I was nominated in the craft-- or the Creative Emmys, which is the week before the Prime Times, so Phoebe and the gang were going out the following weekend. Unfortunately, we didn't coordinate, so I was out there the week before they flew out there, but no, it was just an amazing experience and the whole scale of the Emmys, I hadn't realized how huge it was and it was-

Chrissie: Well, the creative ones are over two nights because there are so many.

Gary Dollner: Yes, exactly. Yeah. No, it's fantastic. One of the things that just-- I had no idea how much loved the show was over there. We knew it had gone down very well, but when you're in a town and people really do show the love for it, it's fantastic. It's the pinnacle of the television world, isn't it? When they called my name out, I was a bit nervous.

Allie: Yeah, I can imagine. It's pretty surreal, I imagine.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, it was completely-

Chrissie: Yeah, on that stage in front of all those faces.

Gary Dollner: ... completely surreal and I didn't have a speech prepared, obviously, but no, it's fantastic. The show has done so extraordinarily well and been so well-received, both critically and from fans, which is just superb really. But yeah, it's always nice to get recognition.

Chrissie: When did you get the sense of how big it had become, both over there and then later here?

Gary Dollner: I think that whole run, I mean, the award season that we've just had has just been nuts because really it was a ... after season one, it was a quite small scale show that sort of punched above its weight in a lot of ways. But when season two went out, I mean, I think it really just went into orbit. It was only then you started to get a small sense of how well it had been received. But the award season, really, I mean, it's just... it's been a mental ride. I mean, none of us had any idea at all that it was going to be as successful as it has proved to be. I mean, it's fantastic, but it's a bit surreal.

Chrissie: Because you came back and you won the ACE Eddie Award also.

Gary Dollner: Yes, exactly, I was there in January for that, which is great again, because to be recognized by your peers is a real privilege.

Allie: Yeah!

Chrissie: You had posted that in that case, Phoebe and Sian were in town and they surprised you at your hotel.

Gary Dollner: Yes. Well, that was really nice because, I mean, they were in for so many different awards ... they're over for the season, sort of thing. I know Sian had to fly back for a bit of filming. So, on the Friday it was lovely because we all met up for lunch on the rooftop by the pool, at the top of the London Hotel.

Allie: Oh, wow!

Chrissie: Oh, that's perfect.

Gary Dollner: Andrew in his little swim shorts looking very cute and hot, obviously. And yeah, it was great. Then, I tried to get some good jokes from Phoebe and Sian. They didn't really come up with much material, so I had to make it up as I went along.

Allie: Oh, that's fabulous.

Chrissie: The rest of this interview is now going to be about Andrew Scott and his swim shorts.

Gary Dollner: It should be, it absolutely should be.

Allie: Throw out the script.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Gary Dollner: Very happy to wax lyrical about that.

Allie: Oh my goodness.

Chrissie: Oh, that's hilarious.

Allie: That must have been cool ... Oh, go ahead.

Gary Dollner: I can't concentrate now.

Allie: Glad you said it! That must have been cool for all of you to be together in LA, of course on the top of the London Hotel. Was there a moment when you sat and looked at each other and were like, "How are we all here across the world? What is happening?"

Gary Dollner: I think we were having a lot of pinch me moments, so it's really amazing to be able to sit down and have lunch and just laugh. We have enjoyed obviously basking in the sunshine and the spotlight, but yeah. Yeah, no, it's fantastic when if you ... the aim really is just to do good work, and so if you get recognized for it, then it's just a bonus really, isn't it?

Allie: Absolutely.

Chrissie: Well, I think Phoebe herself said in one of her speeches, it's a little disgusting how much you all love each other.

Gary Dollner: Well, it is. I mean, there are a few moments ... I mean, I've been doing this for quite a long time now, for I don't know, 28-odd years, and there aren't that many moments in your working life where you do come across a team of people that you all really get on with and you're all pulling in the same direction and I think we were lucky. There's a serendipity about just coming together at that point and I think the thing that we all shared was the fact that we all love the show, we all love the characters. That just became primary in all of our approaches. So much of that is down to Phoebe because she--obviously in addition to all the things that we know she is, she's a brilliant writer and she's a fantastic performer and all the rest of it--but the thing that perhaps isn't as well known the fact that when you're sitting in a relatively confined space, editing for months on end, she's an awful lot of fun to be with. It makes such a huge difference and we all got on.

Aside from that, the other thing that I was really impressed with when I first started working with her back on season one was that despite all of her many layers of involvement in the project, her editorial judgment is, most of the time, absolutely spot on and it just makes life a lot easier.

Allie: Absolutely, I imagine, yeah. So, jumping into our planned questions--but we'll have follow-ups about the swim shorts.

Chrissie: Yeah, what color are they? [Laughs]

Allie: [Laughs] Personally, I used to work doing, and still do, a little video editing and producing, but for those of us who don't know as much about it, can you give us an overview of what your job is like, what film and TV editing is and describe your role on the show. Just for our listeners who aren't in that world.

Gary Dollner: Okay, so in relation to, say, the last season of Fleabag, when they start filming, the rushes come in the following day and they get processed by my assistant, who was Dan [Gage] at the time. And he prepares them all so that when I come in the following morning, it's all ready in a bin and I can start cutting scenes. And so, I basically follow and cut the scenes as they're shooting. And also, at the end of each week, I would send off scene cuts to Harry [Bradbeer], the director, and Phoebe [Waller-Bridge] and the producers Lydia [Hampson] and Sarah [Hammond], so they would get a sense of how things are looking and shaping up.

And then that would proceed throughout filming. And then once the filming's finished, the guys descend into the cutting room. Often what would normally happen is, Harry and I would have a directors pass and we would sit down and once I'd put an episode together, we would then spend maybe a week or so doing the first pass on the episode and tightening things up and adding music and stuff like that. And then, when we thought it was ready for Phoebe to look at, she would then come in and then the three of us would just work through until we were ready to screen it.

Allie: Awesome. We read in an interview that you said there was an “alchemy happening in the edit room”. I just love ... what an amazing way to express that. Can you talk a little bit more about what that was like?

Gary Dollner: Again, when I think... I mentioned about the serendipity of us coming together at a certain time, I couldn't put my finger on how it happened, but I think in relation to working with Harry, I mean, Harry's the nicest man in the world. It's again, so joyful to sit next to someone like that. And when you're working in an edit suite, it can get quite intense at times and opinions are flying around, left, right and center, but he's just the model of calmness, and so, that was ... also, he had a much broader dramatic background than I had. I think when we first started working together, we hadn't worked together before Fleabag, the first season of Fleabag. I just think there was a good relationship in the sense that he was across a lot of the dramatic beats and I've got a lot more experience in comedy and it seemed to, there was a good happy balance going on. And so, I think that was quite fruitful.

And then, obviously, once Phoebe came into the room, then the dynamic changed again. So, yeah, I think it was just, there was a lot of ... I mentioned before about how obviously we all had a commitment to the actual show that we were all very willing to try things out. I think there was a freedom to throw ideas around without fear that they'd be scorned upon or put down. So, I think everyone was really open to trying things out.

I think it's important, on a new show in particular, where you're looking to set the tone in how a show looks and so much of that happens in the cutting room. It's really important to have the time to try different ideas out because often they don't work. But even by going down what I often call an ‘editing cul-de-sac,’ the end result might not be right but you may find three or four steps along the way that are really useful and that you actually do incorporate into the final cut. It's often by making mistakes that you actually find the little gems as well. So, I think it's really important to try and be brave about the way you're open to different ideas.

Allie: Yeah!

Chrissie: Yeah. I remember, my husband works at a TV network, and I think it was Howard Gordon, from 24, came in and was talking about how, as a writer-- because he said fans will be like, "Well, why didn't you do it this way?" And he was like, "Trust." He goes, "Imagine you're setting up the furniture in a room. We've tried every arrangement. We've tried the couch in the corner, we've tried it in the middle. Trust that this is the right one because we've made all the mistakes." And it sounds like that's similar to how you guys were approaching these episodes.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, I think that's the thing. If you're willing to try, then I think part of the trick is making sure that once you've locked an episode, that you're satisfied you've given it every opportunity to find its … for the story to find its own rhythm, and so, it's only by trying different things out that ... Often it might be you go around the house, you try lots of different ways of cutting a scene or a sequence and you may well end up coming back to somewhere similar that you started with. But you know, at that point, you've tried virtually every other way that you can think of. And you have that satisfaction knowing that, I think we've got the right way of telling that story.

Chrissie: Yeah. Well you mention the tone; one of the things we want to talk about is, the tone from season one to season two was so different, and even visually, the show just looks richer and everything is more saturated and brighter. How did your creative process change to differentiate the tone from season one to season two?

Gary Dollner: I think as an editor you're often reacting to the material in front of you so I rarely try and impose ideas on material because I think you have to be reactive. I think that's important. I mean, what soon became clear is that one of the major differences was that the overall arc between the two seasons was fundamentally different. I mean, you had an introduction of a new character and there was a love story that was being played out across the whole season. Whereas in the first season, it felt more individualistic. The episodes were sort of set pieces and there was less... although there were themes running across, the scale of the overall arc wasn't as grand as it perhaps was in the second season.

That seemed to be one of the obvious things really. But I mean, in terms of the look, I mean, that's all down to Harry and Tony, the DP [Director of Photography]. I mean, he shot things so beautifully. I mean, when the rushes started coming through on episode one for season two, it looked like a film, I thought. It was fantastic. And so, you try and do justice to that and then you have to treat the material and see what you can do with it really.

Allie: Yeah!

Chrissie: Mm-hmm. 

Allie: So, to take a step back, we're curious about Fleabag, obviously, but also about you. You mentioned you have a background in comedy. How did you end up in the video editing world and I guess you said it’s 28 years later--where did it all start?

Gary Dollner: I started on a show called The Word, a long time ago, which was a music-based live show in the UK. It was one of my first jobs in TV. I was working as a runner, making cups of tea and looking after the bands in the studio on a Friday night and I did that for a whole season. And then, I was desperate not to do that again and I just said that I was an editor and I could edit. Although I could use the kit, it was pre-digital days, they just... I was lucky that they were giving chances to lots of young people, so they just gave me a trial and I passed the trial and fell into it, in a way.

And then I just sort of realized that you could influence so much in the cutting room. I thought I was going to go on and direct at one point and then I just stayed with editing really. And then I shifted from that sort of material into comedy and then just found that I was on a route to doing lots of great comedy shows and I was having a ball. So, I really got into it.

Chrissie: We had read that-- did you actually do improv comedy at one point?

Gary Dollner: I didn't personally, no.

Chrissie: Okay.

Gary Dollner: No, I've got a face for radio. Definitely stick behind the camera. But I suppose I've worked on a lot of shows over the years that have been scripted shows but that also have incorporated quite a big element of semi-improvised and improvised material. So, over the years I think I've gotten used to working on material that incorporates lots of ad libs. In a way, it has skewed my approach when I edit. But I think in a good way because I'm very open to moving scenes around and dropping scenes and cutting dialogue and trying out various things, because these are techniques that I've had to hone in order to shoehorn in lots of ad libs on scripted material. It's a bit like rewriting the script. I think there's a lot of that goes on in the edit generally. I think that's why a lot of writers are quite fascinated with the editing process because I think they can see a similarity with the whole process. And in a way-

Allie: It's storytelling!

Gary Dollner: Yeah! Yeah, and in a way, it's your final draft. You've still got a chance to change things around. You can re-edit, you can put in extra lines. You can do lots of these things that-- I think that's why it appeals to a lot of writers, because they've still got a chance to tweak the dialogue if they need to, or want to.

Chrissie: Phoebe has referred to you as another writer on the show.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, I mean, that's very kind of her.

Allie: Pretty cool.

Chrissie: How did you develop your comic sensibility? Because I think it's one of those things that you can't teach.

Allie: No, and it stands out in Fleabag.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Allie: The timing and the ...

Chrissie: One of our friends who was on the show called you the fifth Beatle.

Gary Dollner: Really?

Chrissie: Yeah.

Gary Dollner: What? Because I couldn't play the drums or sing?

Chrissie: [Laughs]

Gary Dollner: I don't know how to answer that, really. I mean, I think some editors have got good comic timing and others maybe don't get it as well. I mean, I personally think it's much harder to cut good comedy than it is to cut drama. I think my argument will always be that you have all of the beats you have to hit in a drama in a comedy, but you've got to then, make it funny and get the timing right. So, I think you have to play around with lots of similar techniques but you have to make it funny. Because if it's not funny, you're floored.

Chrissie: And it must be a challenge also to make sure it's funny after you've seen it 25 times.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, it's an interesting thing because what tends to happen with me is that, if there's something ... and often they're really tiny moments that aren't ... because you get so used to the material, the danger is you get a bit snow blind by it. That's why it's always handy to have people coming in, giving fresh eyes on a cut. But then, the other thing I find is that you become almost a bit obsessive with some of the tiny little … and they might just be smiles or reactions. I think in the first episode [of season two], Brett was eating beans and actors love to eat beans. And he dropped a bean by accident but his reaction, he was so in character that his reaction was just beautiful and funny. And so, we spent a little time, just made sure that that was in there because it was just ... I think if you can add a little bit of extra, then I feel like I'm doing my job properly.

So, if you've got a brilliant script and you've got fantastic actors and it's well directed and it's beautifully shot, what I try and do is, there's a responsibility on making sure that you capture all of that. And then give it extra as well. So, you're always looking out for all the odd little moments that just might raise the bar a little bit.

Chrissie: Well, and we can say as viewers who have been watching the show over and over, those moments are great for us because we feel like every time we watch it, we find something new. And so, one of our listeners who saw that, posted in our Facebook group like, "Guys, I just noticed this. He cannot eat this green bean." Because there's actually a second shot where it's still on his fork, but he bites down but it doesn't go in his mouth.

Gary Dollner: Yeah!

Chrissie: And so suddenly, we're like, oh my God, these green beans are ...

Gary Dollner: They've got their own little narrative going on, haven't they?

Allie: Yes, absolutely.

Chrissie: Right. But it is such a subtle thing that fits Martin as a character, that he wouldn't be-

Allie: It just enriches him.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Gary Dollner: He's an extraordinary performer. I mean, I remember talking to him after an award thing one night and there's a scene in the ... it's the last scene in -- episode six. And it's the scene where they're in the kitchen and he makes Claire go-- Claire goes down on her knees to say, "It's all over." And I remember looking at, watching the rushes and then putting together a select reel, all the best bits of performance I liked. And I remember calling Dan, the assistant, and saying, "Just watch this." Because he gave a different reading every single time. But it wasn't necessarily a subtle difference, it was quite a major difference. The rhythms were different and he would attack one take and then he would be calmer in the next. He'd be shouting in the next one.

Gary Dollner: And I was thinking... every reading had a validity to it as well, that then ... and it's almost the opposite of what a lot of editors want because it makes it really difficult to put together that speech. Because what you're doing is, you can play it a number of different ways as opposed to, if an actor is metronomic in their delivery, and they're making it easy because they've got their reading of the scene and then they're replicating it every time. But he did the opposite and I think that's down to his ... his stand up, improv background and I just think he ... I can't big him up enough. I think he's an extraordinary actor and he just gave Martin a reality that I don't think many other people could have done.

Allie: Absolutely.

Gary Dollner: Made if much more difficult to edit but-

Allie: Yeah, because you couldn't pick and choose.

Chrissie: You’re too good, Brett!

Gary Dollner: Yeah! Well, what he's doing is fantastic because he's challenging you as an editor because he's giving you so many different tools to play around with that you can actually have that dialogue, you can peak and you can trough at different places and then you've got to try and build your own version of the best bits. Obviously you try and bolt together lots of different takes and the rhythm would be all over the place. Then you have to try and make that new version of his delivery across the different takes real.

Chrissie: Well, the effect is so good because you really do have a moment where you're like, "She should stay with him."

Allie: Yeah, sympathy for Martin.

Gary Dollner:  I know!

Chrissie: You kind of get the sense that maybe he's also given versions of this speech before but he's just now it's really hitting him that this could happen.

Gary Dollner: Possibly, yeah. I mean, it's so funny you say that because I remember phoning Phoebe up and saying, "I've just cut this scene and, oh my God, I've got so much sympathy for Martin." And she was like, "What? No, you can't. What are you doing?"

Allie: Got to redo the whole thing over.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, it's just that he was so believable.

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: Well, really every character gets a moment like that it seems like. Even Godmother at some point when she said, "You want me taking care of him?"

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: I think that's the brilliance of the writing, that everybody is human.

Allie: Yeah.

Gary Dollner: ‘Course it is.

Allie: Everyone's three dimensional.

Gary Dollner: And I think it's about keeping things real. I think the minute you don't believe in anything anymore, then the whole world starts to fall apart and you're lost, I think.

Allie: Right. Getting back to maybe more technical aspects-

Chrissie: Allie’s got her editing hat on.

Allie: ... I might be the only one who cares about this. But I'm curious, how long would you estimate it took you to edit just a single episode? Because when I work on video editing, we say for every one minute of content that you edit, it's about an hour of work that goes in. And that was only through, I do short documentaries--as Bus Rodent would say, ‘docs.’ And so, I'm curious about just like, the work that must have gone into every single episode. How long did you have? Especially since you were under time constraints and financial constraints.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, to be honest, I can't really answer that. I mean, because I think we were supposed to give rolling deliveries so that you're supposed to lock as we go along. But I know that it was slightly ... well, in season two, because there was-- Phoebe decided to rewrite a few scenes in a couple of episodes, we couldn’t actually go and lock. There was a bit of a holding pattern with some of the episodes before we could actually lock them. I think that was really important because it's one of the things I said, if we were going to do this again after season one-- the hardest challenge for season one was knowing how much we should give away in terms of the flashbacks, because we were having to lock, say, episode three, before you fine-cut four, five, and six.

And so, when you start to put in some flashbacks, it was difficult to know how much we should give away, because we couldn't get to the end of episode six and then go back and just watch them all again and say, maybe we need to take a few out of there or give a bit more here because you had to commit before you went on to the next episode. And so, that's the thing that I'm most proud of with the first series was that a lot of people made a thing about how well balanced it was. That you really were floored at the end when the reveal happened. You had enough, but you didn't know what was happening. And so that was-

Chrissie: Yeah, it didn't seem totally out of left field but it was a surprise.

Gary Dollner: Yeah. Exactly.

Allie: Yeah, it crept up on you a little because I was ... honestly, I was really impressed with how perfect it seemed to be laid out, so I'm really amazed that it wasn't more ‘big picture.’ That’s incredible.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, I mean, that became a bit of a source of frustration but that was the schedule, so we had to stick to it.

Allie: Yeah, wow.

Gary Dollner: But that's one of the things that, going into the second season it was like, if we can, can we get to... But even then we couldn't. Because there were rewrites, it meant that we could, we were revisiting episodes, we were parking some episodes, going on to the next one. Parking that, going back to another one. And then we were jumping between two or three episodes at a time. So, it's quite difficult to say... and also, the first episode did take a bit longer because it's the first episode and we're introducing a new character and we were mostly in one location. And so, there were lots of things, I think you guys have probably discussed it before but one day Phoebe came in and said, "Right, I want you to take all of the looks to camera out for the first 20 minutes."

Allie: Right.

Gary Dollner: And we just looked at her and said, "What do you mean? What are you doing? What are you doing? It'll be rubbish." And it was. But-

Chrissie: Why didn't it work?

Gary Dollner: Well, I think we got a version that did work. And it took-- we're getting technical for a moment, you can't just go through and take out all the looks because a lot of those looks are connected before and after with a performance, so it means that you then have to find different versions of that performance because you can't use what you had in your selected take because it led to a look down the barrel. So, you had to then find different takes and then it's a bit like pulling a thread and you have to keep pulling until you can fix it and then go back and ... So that took a couple of days to do that. That's one of the things I think I've talked about before, that was a classic editing cul-de-sac.

But, it was one of the things that was, although we didn't think it was a good idea, I think that's one of the things that she's so fantastic at. It's just like, well, let's just try. Because we never know what's going to come out of it. And she had a very good reason to do it. But we tried it and it didn't work. However, lots of things were borne out of it because of what we had to do, we were forced to rework some other material in order to get round some of the humps that were created by losing the looks to camera.

So, if we hadn't done that process, we wouldn't have found some of the other ... for example, there’s a little montage of cackling and laughter around the table. Now that, that was an accident. That wasn't scripted, that was just a device that I came up with, I think when we were, “how do we get round…” because there were gaps left because we were taking out the looks to camera and I think we just said, well, what happens if we try, we cut together some laughs around the table so it alluded to the time passing, which we wanted at the time.

But also when Iso [Isobel Waller-Bridge] delivered this amazing music, and then when we married this amazing soundtrack to this jump cut laughter around the table, there was something that was just amazing about it. And that's one of the joys of editing, is when you have happy accidents or you have experimental things that weren't scripted, or even shot, for that reason, those moments are great.

Allie: Yeah, everything's valuable.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, exactly.

Chrissie: That montage is so perfect because it sets up this weirdly like ... there's almost a maniacal tone to some of their laughter.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, especially Martin.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Allie: Yeah.

Gary Dollner: And then you realize that they haven't been drinking and they've been trying for a baby and that that sort of laughter then has a story behind it.

Allie: Oh, absolutely.

Chrissie: Yeah, and it also feels false, like everybody's like, we're pretending we're having a great time. We're all thrilled to be here.

Gary Dollner: Which again feeds into the whole premise of that whole-- what Phoebe had written in the opening episode, so it's another little reflection on the bigger picture.

Chrissie: And when you were saying about, she wanted to do that attempt of taking out all the looks, because she's talked about how that was her real sticking point on why even to do a season two-- is what's her reason for looking at the camera? So, what were some of the conversations you guys had around that?

Gary Dollner: Well, as soon as she introduced the character of the priest and that he would at some point challenge and recognize that she was looking to the camera, that became the conceit that allowed her to write the second season. I think she just wanted to try ... I can't remember what the ... there was a certain moment and it may have been the punch, I can't remember what it was now, about 20 minutes into the episode and so she wanted to try what it would look like if we played a ‘straight bat’ in terms of no looks until this particular moment, and then that would prompt the look to camera.

There's a delicious idea in there, that it's like deferred gratification, isn't it? So, you hold back what the audience really wants and are gagging for and the longer you hold it back, hopefully the more intense the moment-- the feeling is that when it does happen. But I think the dynamics of that episode were so beautifully crafted that clearly, the audience wants... and she played some of those moments, and the way she wrote that extended introduction, to get you up to speed, I mean, I thought it was so clever. And so you needed all those looks.

And the other thing that perhaps meant that that idea was never going to work was that the whole episode was like a hugely coiled spring.

Allie: What a great way to put that.

Gary Dollner: Basically you could just wind, wind up and wind up and wind up until the punch. And then the cork comes flying out the bottle and there's this huge fight. And that's such a moment of release and so, when you know that you've got that moment to go to, basically you have to try and wind it up as tight as possible because the tighter the coiling, the harder the moment falls.

Allie: Right.

Chrissie: It seems like, over the course of the episode, she starts looking towards the priest more than she does to us when things start happening. And some of Godmother's lines or certain things, she starts glancing over to him instead of to the camera. Talking about that first episode, we had also read that she had actually written two episodes prior to that. That was supposed to be the third episode of the season but she cut two episodes. Is that accurate?

Gary Dollner: I don't know because obviously when I came onboard, that was the first episode, so that might be true.

Allie: Okay, so it was never shot, it was just scripted.

Gary Dollner: No, no.

Chrissie: She only had drafted it, okay.

Allie: Also, you're breaking our hearts because we thought somewhere in a vault there were two more episodes.

Gary Dollner: There may well be, there may well be. I couldn't possibly tell you. [Laughs] No, there isn't, there isn't.

Allie: You mentioned this a little bit already but, of course, obviously you know how beloved season two episode one is, and just how remarkably it's been received and how it connected with a lot of people, and we're really interested in what the unique editing challenges for you were because you feel like you're at the table as well. And that's a different style than other, maybe, restaurant scenes that we've seen in the past in other shows. There's so many little small actions of people eating and wine pouring and the waitress moving. How did you make that all look seamless? Was that difficult to choose which camera shot? I'm just curious about your process.

Gary Dollner: I think, I'll go back to what I mentioned, having worked with a lot of improvised stuff, I'm very used to searching for every little moment because you never know when it could be useful. And so, when you watch, you just have to watch all of the takes and there were so many dynamics going on around the table. I mean, you could literally draw a line between any two characters and understand a whole range of emotions that were at play, all the time. It was like a pinball, crisscrossing all the time. Looks, daggers were going across and eyes were darting around and people were giving each other all sorts of looks.

And this was all in addition to the written word. You got a brilliant script anyway, but then you had this whole other layer of delicious moments that were going on. Knowing that there was so much tension going into that dinner, and we've all been in similar kind of situations where there's an awkward air that's floating around. And so, I think the fact that it was all in one location, and Harry deliberately shot it in a certain way, I just thought, well, the only way we're going to tell this story is if we zip around the table all the time and we keep it ... I mean, I like to cut quite fast anyway, but I think the thing that I really appreciate when it's done well is natural dialogue, overlapping all the time. Because that's the way people talk.

If there's a conversation, we're always chipping in and talking over each other and all of a sudden it's got a certain energy to it and then with that energy, you feel like you want to be bouncing around the table because it's a very static situation. So, it just felt like the obvious way to tackle this was to just go at it, crisscrossing all the time and just catching looks and darting eyes and little smiles or little face drops or little looks between each other against other people. It was just there were so many layers going on. I just thought, we have to whip around this and I just thought, let's attack this and see what happens.

Chrissie: I was going to say, we had also read that Harry had talked about that a lot of times in a static scene, directors will have a temptation to move the camera a lot because they feel like they have to create energy. But it seems like he really trusted you to do that and he just kept static shots.

Gary Dollner: Well, I think, yeah. And that he deliberately wanted it to be like ... there's an element of theatricality in the way that he shot it. But, I think if it had been ... the problem of moving a camera is that it forces your hand as an editor because you have to let the camera do the work. If those moves are beautifully orchestrated, it can be magic. But what it means is, if you want to create a certain tension or energy and you want to up the pace, you're slightly restricted again by the material. So, I think that that really played into the fact that I could just dip in and out in terms of over the shoulder shots and looks and eyes and I just thought I could take this static situation and just inject energy into it by bouncing around the table.

Chrissie: I think another thing that works so well with like you were saying, the glances and the looks-- so we've joked that in our office, we're now we're just like the Fleabag people. Anybody who sees us they're like, "I started watching Fleabag."

Allie: Yeah, because we work together as well.

Gary Dollner: Right, yeah.

Chrissie: We're always like, “It's not homework, you don't have to.” But some people admittedly find season one... Because they've heard all the praise about season two and this love story, and I think when they start on season one it's maybe a little darker than they're expecting. So, we'll literally say, "If you're not feeling season one, jump to season two." And I think with that first episode, if you have watched season one, you appreciate the dynamics between all those people. But if you haven't, you get an immediate introduction into the tension between these people. So, it works on both levels.

Gary Dollner: I think each episode ideally has to stand alone, doesn't it? If you can. But obviously if you're a follower of the show then perhaps you've got a bit more of an insight into what's going on. But you still want each episode to work on its own merit.

Chrissie: Right.

Allie: Right. Staying on episode two, I've a very important-

Chrissie: Episode one.

Allie: Oh, I mean, sorry, episode one.

Chrissie: Two point one.

Allie: Two point one. I have a very important question for you. I think one of my favorite lines in the show is when Godmother says, "Now, the interesting thing about father here, is that his mother was originally a lesbian." And I love that cut, I just love that cut. What I'm curious about is one, was that scripted, or did you decide we need to do a smash cut to her breaking out of there and having a cigarette? And I'm curious about even just how you decide where in the word lesbian to cut off and what that process is like for you.

Gary Dollner: I mean, I'm pretty sure that was a scripted cut, so although I'd like to claim full responsibility-- 

Chrissie: I think you should.

Allie: We won’t tell!

Gary Dollner: That's one of the other things that she's brilliant at. She writes like an editor. I think there's a cut where Andrew goes, the Priest goes, "What the ..." and it cuts to “Fuck?”

Allie: Yes, I love that one.

Chrissie: Oh yeah.

Gary Dollner: That's a written edit, and there's not many writers out there that are adept enough to write like that. Often those moments are, that's the skill of the editor who would bring that to the party. But she's that good she can ... I got great edits just because she'd written them. But I think the other part is, you just play around with literally the frame-

Allie: Right, I imagine going frame by frame.

Gary Dollner: ... to see. So, you just have a little play, and it doesn't take long and then you'll find an optimum beat on the outgoing and the incoming that works. And when it makes you laugh, that's the one.

Chrissie: Did she have multiple takes of that? Because the way she crescendos up on that word also works.

Gary Dollner: Yes, yeah. I mean, Olivia's just ... she's-

Chrissie: I hear she's good.

Gary Dollner: She's all right. She's fantastic. It's a dream to cut people like that. She's fantastic and-

Chrissie: Speaking of her ... oh, I'm sorry.

Gary Dollner: Go on.

Chrissie: I was going to say, speaking of her, we had seen a clip of Andrew Scott telling the story about the like when he says his brother is a pedophile.

Gary Dollner: Yes.

Chrissie: That she was not aware of that script change.

Gary Dollner: Right.

Chrissie: So, did you just have to use that ... were there multiple takes or did you use that original take, like are we actually seeing her respond?

Gary Dollner: There were three different versions of that line. There were a couple of other versions, so I think it was three different jokes. I think I'm right in saying, the BBC said they put their foot down on one of them. So, I think they put their foot down on the scripted version, so Phoebe came up with a different alt.

Chrissie: Which was because he's a cunt?

Gary Dollner: Yes, that's the one, yes.

Chrissie: This word has become like saying the word “the.” We just throw it around.

Gary Dollner: Good. Good, good, good.

Allie: Well, it's not as common here in the US as it is in the UK, so we have to watch who we're talking to.

Gary Dollner: It should be, it should be!

Allie: I think it is now.

Chrissie: It's so useful.

Gary Dollner: So they were upset, they were upset a little bit with, they didn't like that scripted joke, so that's like, just music to her ears in a way because she just came back with a much stronger, funnier joke, equally as dark. What I really liked about that was that the supplementary to it felt like it made sense that that character would say that kind of joke, as opposed to just hearing a priest say cunt. The fact that he was a pedophile and he got the irony of it, that just felt like, it was a deeper joke for me. As soon as I watched the three alts, I obviously cut each version but I remember, the one I presented in the assemblies was the one that the version that went out. The pedophile irony version.

Chrissie: So, we're seeing her actual reaction to that line?

Gary Dollner: Possibly. Again, I can't remember, to be honest. But I do remember, talking about honest genuine reactions, there was a scene, you just reminded me, there's a scene in the hallway in, I can't remember which episode, in the first series, where Godmother smacks Fleabag around the face. And I think they might have said before the take, "You can really hit me this time." And Olivia really walloped Phoebe. And she did it obviously on a medium close-up and when the hand came away, you could see the red mark on Phoebe's cheek and I remember watching it in the rushes going, and I gasped. I thought, she's really walloped her. But her reaction was just... wow. It was like really, it was so real because she'd whacked her really hard.

Allie: Because she really got slapped.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Gary Dollner: And just little moments like that that you just think, wow. That's real commitment to your art.

Chrissie: Yeah, no kidding.

Allie: For sure, yeah.

Gary Dollner: Yeah.

Chrissie: Another cut off edit, or just the way it overlaps, that is a key moment between Priest and Fleabag is when she says to the camera, "Nobody's asked me a question in 45 minute." And then he cuts off on says, "So, what do you do?"

Gary Dollner: Yes.

Chrissie: Even when you read the scriptures, it's like that's two lines of dialogue and the way it's cut says so much between the two of them because there's a cut to just a look that he's giving her, where he actually looks kind of nervous. He swallows and we said it's almost like he's been building up the courage to ask her a question. And so, we just wanted to hear your side of putting that scene together.

Gary Dollner: That's interesting you picked up on that because I think we struggled a little bit with that bit of the table, around that chunk of the dialogue. So, I think we probably worked quite hard to get that right.

Allie: Well, clearly it worked.

Gary Dollner: Well yeah, phew!

Chrissie: That's like a GIF factory.

Allie: If all the awards didn't give you a hint enough, we have given our approval.

Chrissie: Well, because we literally were even diving deep into the way he says it, because he doesn't say it's like, "So, what do you do?" Like you would talk to a stranger. It's almost like he's already assumed he knows her and he's like, "So, what do you do? I've been thinking about you and now just tell me what you do."

Gary Dollner: Isn't that the beauty of interpretation of dialogue because whether there's intent there or not, you're bringing so much meaning to you viewing that moment.

Chrissie: Yeah, especially when you watch it on the 30th time.

Allie: Yeah.

Gary Dollner: Yeah.

Allie: Like a normal person.

Chrissie: A very cool person. The other moment between the two of them is outside with the cigarette and we said, even the way you hold on him when he exhales the smoke after she leaves, we kind of get another sense that he's just very nervous throughout this whole thing.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, but there's a lot of mischief going on there as well. And there's so much-

Chrissie: Yeah, definitely. He's nervous but confident.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, and there's a lot of sexual tension going on as well, so there's a lot ... and they're just so good together that I think, again, I know they've spoken before about it but clearly they got on when they first worked together. I mean, I suppose some actors just have connectivity, don't they? And when you pair them together, for want of a better word, there's an alchemy going on again that you can't necessarily direct or train or make happen. It's either there or it's not. If you've got two people who are connected in that way, they can do so much without even saying anything. They can just look at each other and sparks are fizzing off, aren't they?

Chrissie: Well yeah, because this is another case where the dialogue looks so simple, but then after, and here he's saying a pretty aggressive line, like, "Fuck you, then." But that smile, when he looks back up at her smiling, there's so much in that face of-

Gary Dollner: Yes, I know.

Chrissie: ... like, “I surprised you” or I don't know, because that was also kind of a risky thing for him to say to her.

Gary Dollner: ‘Course. And it's a priest in the first episode and he's swearing. I mean, it's quite high risk in that sense.

Chrissie: Right. Well, and even just for him as an intro to her.

Gary Dollner: Yeah.

Chrissie: Like, it's one of the first things he's saying to her. He's really letting her know he's there to play.

Gary Dollner: I suppose, looking back on it, by making your new character say something like that in that context, the inference has to be there's something going on that is more than just two people talking together, having a cigarette outside.

Allie: Yeah, yeah. Did you have a sense that season two, or the series two premiere episode was a stand-out episode after you'd cut it? Were you already thinking, “You know what? This is something special.” Or did it just seem like, “We're embarking on a new season, let's see what happens.”

Gary Dollner: Yeah. I think it was the latter really. We had to spend a bit of time on it, and we were very pleased with it but I think by the time we finished it we thought it was a good episode. But you never really know. It's four or five people in a room going, "Yeah, I think it's good but I'm not sure. What do you think?" "Yeah, no, I think I like it." And so, you're in a cocoon and you try and make it the best you possibly can and then, obviously we're getting feedback if we're sending it out to execs and they seem to like it but yeah, you don't-

Chrissie: They must have been thrilled.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, generally they were very happy. Again, good exec work because when you have a strong editorial voice that's making programs for you, you should let them be, really. And thankfully they gave good notes but they weren't interfering at all.

Chrissie: I'm just imagining that, because here they had to beg her to do a new season. And then she's like, "Okay, how about I deliver a masterpiece? Is that going to work?"

Allie: Here you go.

Chrissie: Well, we want to be respectful of your time so maybe we can just quickly hit through some other key scenes and just get your take. So, in episode two, the counselor scene with Fiona Shaw, it's just like a masterclass of comedy.

Gary Dollner: Well, that was lovely because I'd just come off of doing the first two episodes of Killing Eve, so I was such a huge fan of Fiona's work on that. I mean, she was extraordinary, and again, when you've got ... she does so much without doing anything at all. It's incredible.

Allie: Oh, absolutely.

Chrissie: Yes. Her face hardly moves.

Allie: The queen of the straight face.

Gary Dollner: Just extraordinary. In fact, I watched that episode this afternoon because I know you wanted to ask about that and I thought I better just remind myself of it. For me, she got the biggest laugh of the whole scene. They were so good together, but that's the classic clown and straight man, or straight person. She was just brilliant.

Gary Dollner: But that was part of a rewrite, that scene.

Chrissie: Oh!

Allie: Oh!

Allie: Tell us more.

Gary Dollner: That wasn't originally scripted and I think Phoebe felt like there was a missing beat going on, and then Fiona was available for this for an afternoon, so she just knocked out this amazing scene.

Allie: Kismet.

Gary Dollner: Yeah.

Chrissie: Well, and it's another example of, there's comic relief in it obviously, but Fleabag has some serious realizations about herself. I said, her dad actually gave her a good gift.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, yeah!

Chrissie: It ended up being helpful.

Gary Dollner: And again I think, because it was a house style, we played around with some of the flashbacks in there. I think we didn't do it at first and then we were placing, we were having a bit of fun with what we could do and where we could do it.

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: Mm-hmm.

Allie: So, going to the other fabulous leading ... or not leading lady, but Kristin Scott Thomas, another legend. We're curious, her monologue about menopause is so incredible and we're curious, you'd mentioned already that Brett Gelman's speech got rewritten and he'd performed it so many times that it was so well done. What was the process of cutting Belinda's monologue? Was that a different style since it was more straight, they're sitting at a bar? Talk to us a little bit about that.

Gary Dollner: I think that was probably the hardest scene to cut in the whole of the season.

Allie: Oh, wow. Why was that?

Chrissie: We've stumped him.

Gary Dollner: Yeah. No, it's ...

Allie: It's okay if you don't know!

Gary Dollner: It was just, I think, finding her level. I mean, I think I just had to ... I don't know really, it's a tricky question. I just remember thinking, this is not going very well. This is really difficult to do and I went round the houses on it and we cut so many versions of that scene.

Allie: Wow.

Chrissie: Was there more that had been scripted that you had to trim?

Gary Dollner: I think we did cut quite a few lines out of it. But yeah that just-

Allie: Wow.

Gary Dollner: Sorry?

Allie: Oh, go ahead.

Gary Dollner: No, no. It was just a very difficult scene to cut and I don't know why. I mean, it is such a brilliant dialogue and I can't put my finger on it but it was just-

Allie: That's all right.

Gary Dollner: ... it was just one of those things, it just didn't click into place.

Chrissie: Well, the end result did.

Allie: I was going to say, it didn't come off that way. That scene, I think, resonated with a lot of people.

Chrissie: I really wanted her to win that guest actress Emmy because she really was great in that.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, yeah.

Chrissie: But then in the end of that episode, this is actually my favorite scene sequence, is Fleabag coming to visit Priest at the church, and that whole conversation. Because I feel like it's, we see this evolution of their relationship and they're still getting to know each other, but there's definitely a connection. And then, he's establishing himself as like, this is who I am and you're not going to change me. And-

Gary Dollner: Yes, so this is in the garden, right? In the garden of the property.

Chrissie: Yes. Yeah and then his reaction to the fox to kind of punctuate this. There's such a tonal ping pong, I feel like, in that scene. And so, how did that translate for you as you were working on it?

Gary Dollner: Yeah, again, we kicked that scene around quite a lot and I'm trying to think back to when I put the scene together, there were some stand-out performances from him in particular that you just think, well, I want to try and use that as cornerstones to build the scene around. And then, I think we might have dropped a bit of dialogue as well, which obviously, when you do start cutting the odd line or two, that has implications because the joins then sometimes become a bit more difficult to put together.

Gary Dollner: And I think some of the set, they did such a brilliant job of the sound in the end because it was quite noisy in that garden, I think. It wasn't just the fox disturbing, there were other noises going on as well. But yeah, no, again, I think there was... I think we went round the houses a bit on that as well. But again, I watched that scene this afternoon just to remind myself and there's some ... actually it's come together quite well. I mean, I think it was a lot harder to put together than it looks.

Chrissie: Well, and that hard cut when you see the fox.

Allie: It's the best.

Chrissie: And we had read that, talking about their chemistry, that they were offered, “Do you want a visual cue of where to look, when to look at the same time?” and they said no.

Allie: Which is amazing.

Chrissie: But they always did it at the same time.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, yeah. They just do things that just made me howl out laughing, just watching the rushes. And I think that was one of those moments.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Allie: Wow.

Chrissie: All right, moving on to episode four.

Allie: So, episode four, we're cranking through. One of the things that caught me and really hooked me on the show in season one was the guy in the café who plugged in all of his devices in total awkward tense silence. And we'd also seen-- Andrew Scott did a GQ video where he ... it looks like they forced him to watch the confessional scene.

Chrissie: He looks very uncomfortable.

Allie: … The Kneel scene and he called you a genius and said how you let silences linger and-

Chrissie: He also said you looked hot in swim shorts, which was an honor.

Gary Dollner: Did he now?

Chrissie: Yeah. [Laughs]

Allie: To return the favor.

Gary Dollner: Yeah. 

Allie: But what's your style when it comes to cutting something that's so awkwardly quiet and letting it move and not having it be too much or too stressful?

Chrissie: To know when the audience might lose patience.

Allie: Exactly, what's that like?

Gary Dollner: It's that tightrope between exactly what you say. Clearly it's an awkward moment. Or, if there's an awkward joke that you have to get across, you want ... going back to the guy plugging in, that's sort of like a classic “incessant joke” where you're just doing it again and again and again and again and you think, oh, he's finished... Now he's going to go and do it again. And so then it has certain internal rhythms and you’ve got to go to a certain extent and then go beyond it because you're really rinsing it at that point. Yeah, often they're the most difficult to do, actually, because you're probably mostly reliant on the performer’s art, in terms of knowing when to play it and when to stop.

I mean, the greatest one I can think of is-- I did a show years ago with Steve Coogan in it, I'm Alan Partridge, and it's become quite well known. There's a clip where he's shouting across to his new friend Dan and he's shouting at him across the carpark, and Dan doesn't hear him, but he just goes on just too long. And it's one of the easiest scenes to cut because there's no cut in it. You let it all play out in the frame. Often that's a trick with those jokes, that when the actor's delivering, you let them do their stuff and it's knowing when not to cut as well as when to cut.

Chrissie: Well, in a lot of those cases, it's that wave... it's like it's funny, and then it's not funny. And then it's really funny.

Allie: Yeah, got to get there.

Gary Dollner: Exactly. But obviously you need to temper that with the fact that it might just be boring and dull because you’ve got to let things play out for a certain time.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Allie: Right.

Gary Dollner: That's an inherent part of the comedy that you're trying to make work.

Chrissie: We all know the Kneel scene as a classic. Did you have a sense of that as you were working on it?

Gary Dollner: No.

Allie: Like how beloved that would be?

Gary Dollner: Not really, no.

Chrissie: That's another case where the tone of that scene is so important that he doesn't seem ... I don't know.

Gary Dollner: In a way, it was one of those scenes that, it was very dramatic and although there were a couple of funny punctuations in it you did get, you were caught up in the drama of the scene. And so much pressure was on Phoebe's performance because the priest was behind the other side. But again, we use the music to such great effect, I think, because that over-the-top choral nature of that big music. As soon as you drew the curtain back, you brought the music in and you had a natural cut point when you had the call back, which is a comedy device where the painting falls down, and then his look again, and her look, it just all ... But again, we played around with that quite a bit. There were quite a few runs at that scene.

Chrissie: What do you think of some of the criticism of some people who have said that actually the priest is predatory and taking advantage of her, did you guys have discussions about how to make sure that ... I mean, we don't obviously believe that, but of making sure that that was not the case.

Gary Dollner: I can't recall having conversations of that nature. I mean, it was a ... I think because, I mean, I suppose in my head the strength was always with, you were with Fleabag. You never thought, knowing who she is, if anyone is a sexual predator, it's her. It's not him.

Allie: Agreed.

Gary Dollner: And so, the idea that he then could be that on her is, I think is ridiculous.

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: Yeah, and Andrew Scott has said that.

Allie: We're with you.

Gary Dollner: Well, if you knew the characters, you just wouldn't ... I don't think that even entered my head. I was feeling sorry for him because she was chasing him so hard, it was the other way round to me.

Chrissie: Well, I think that was such a part of their dynamic was him letting her know that I'm not just another check mark for you to-

Allie: Notch on the bedpost.

Chrissie: Exactly.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, exactly.

Chrissie: A novelty.

Allie: So, you just mentioned the music, and that's a perfect segue because we wanted to talk a little bit more about that. Phoebe had talked about how Isobel's music had fit perfectly in episode five, but backwards. So, could you paint us a picture of what that was like when you placed the track down and then it just worked.

Gary Dollner: In which section?

Chrissie: She didn't say. This was at the town hall, she had just mentioned that-

Allie: Yeah, we saw a Q&A she did.

Chrissie: ... I think it was that last scene at the apartment, that there was something that wasn't working and they were like, this just isn't working. But then, once the music went in, but backwards, then it suddenly came to life and that you didn't need to do any edits.

Allie: But that's all right if you’re not sure.

Gary Dollner: I can't actually think of that moment off the top of my head. It just doesn't ... no. But again-

Chrissie: Well, just generally working with her music.

Allie: Yeah, how was that?

Gary Dollner: I mean, as soon as they ... I mean, I think it's Phoebe's original idea and obviously she worked with Iso to create it all and I mean, I love the fact that Iso got all these singers to sing “cock” and “cunt” and “vagina” in Latin or whatever it is.

Allie: It's such a great little bit, yeah.

Gary Dollner: It's just perfect. But for me, it became sort of a major character in its own right and it helped me enormously when we were finalizing the first episode, as soon as that first version, she delivered that and we put it on the extended intro, it just came to life. Because I thought, oh, okay, I know exactly how fast to cut this now because I had this brilliant temp to cut to. And then, we then ... because it was big and dramatic, we could use it, so when we found those moments of cackling and laughter, the jump cut stuff that I mentioned earlier on and then we put that on it, it became like, oh, this became something else again.

I think there was another moment when, in the first episode [of season two] where I think after Claire storms off to go to the bathroom, there's these really over-the-top looks when we go round the table. But again, without the music, it wouldn't have been sustainable, but with the music, it became an added bit of funny. So, I just think it was brilliant.

Chrissie: It heightened the stakes all the way through.

Gary Dollner: Completely, completely and utterly, yeah. And the whole inclusion of religion as a theme running throughout the second season with the priest and then the music, I think it gave it an elevation really.

Chrissie: Definitely.

Allie: Yeah!

Chrissie: The other big scene, of course, in episode five, which I was just calling The Scene, capitalized, is when they finally have sex and the lead up to that, even with Hot Misogynist and that comic relief with the reaction shots of the priest. And that was a scene... I've said that I joke about a series in my head called,  “In A Lesser Show,” because I feel like, watching it, I would be like, “Oh, he's going to get mad and he's going to leave because he's going to think this is her boyfriend or whatever.” Then of course it's like, “No, this is too smart for that.” I've also said that the sex scenes with the priest are so much more chaste and less revealing than anything in season one, but they're much more effective.

Allie: Yes, there's more passion, there's sexual tension.

Chrissie: There's more passion. All of which to say, when you were editing those scenes, tell us about that.

Allie: And the cutting choices you made to maybe make it less revealing-

Chrissie: Heighten that tension.

Allie: Yeah, we're curious.

Gary Dollner: Well, I think the watch word was probably “less is more,” really. Again, this tension had been building up across quite a few episodes so we didn't need to necessarily spend so much time on it.

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: Right.

Allie: That makes sense.

Gary Dollner: But, I think, again, sometimes you can play with the audiences' imagination because you only need to give a hint of it and they can run away with it sort of thing.

Chrissie: Mm-hmm.

Allie: Yeah, yeah.

Chrissie: Well, it worked. And Allie had pointed out, even the Hot Misogynist showing up was funny but then it also sets up this ... she goes, "It just fills the room with like, sex, sex, sex, like, just we're talking about nothing but that."

Gary Dollner: And of course at that point, the audience are desperate for it to happen anyway.

Allie: Oh, yeah.

Chrissie: Oh my God, yes.

Allie: We're with you there, and both of them. So, moving on to the last episode, and let us know, maybe if we can have 10 more minutes of your time, that would be fabulous, but if you've got to go, that's also fine.

Gary Dollner: No, that's fine.

Allie: Okay, thank you so much. One of my favorite scenes from the whole series is the wedding. Just them flitting around the wedding and you feel like you are a guest. You see snippets of different people arriving and bits of conversation like you're walking around. We're curious, was that more how it was shot or was that ... that seems like something that you as the editor would be able to create that feeling.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, I think that was more of a cutting choice rather than a shooting choice. I mean, obviously one of the things that, by flitting around various different locations within the garden scene, for example, but you can inject energy into a scene and pick the pace up. And also, that allows you to, if there's some moments that, there might be some lines that get lost, so it means that you can jump around and then that allows you to do two things. It allows you to cut out some dialogue seamlessly but then you can intercut different moments around the garden, in this instance. Which again, gives you some energy and some pace. So, you're doing two things at the same time.

Allie: Right, right.

Chrissie: Well, and even having a couple of plot points, like the reveal of the painting as part of that.

Allie: Right, right.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chrissie: It's just enough where we see that it's done.

Allie: Were there any weird-

Gary Dollner: And the nice thing I like about that is, that it was sort of thrown away. But clearly there's a whole narrative backstory to that because there's a whole scene when they're doing the sitting and they talk about it in other scenes as well, "Oh, we're doing a painting." And actually, you know when you're working on a good show or a film when you can have funny moments and just throw them away and not make a big thing because you've got another one coming up just around the corner. So, you've got lots of great material and with a lightness of touch, I think it makes it funnier because you're not putting too much pressure on that joke.

Allie: It's not too saturated.

Chrissie: And the joke isn't... we know she's a good artist, like the joke isn't, “Oh, here's what the painting looked like.” But what's funny is that Claire looks the exact expression in real life that she does in the painting and we know it's because she's thinking about Klare. There's so much in that one moment.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, exactly.

Chrissie: At the very last scene, you had said ... we watched the interview you did at the Creative Arts Emmys. And you were saying when you edited the very last part, when she walks away, that you had an emotional reaction to that.

Gary Dollner: Well, it started from when I watched the rushes for the very first time. It was such a powerful scene, and I mean, sitting in an edit suite on my own, I mean, that's where I am at the moment, just a room like this and watching the material and I just waved back at her. I mean, I don't know why, I just did. And then it became almost like a Pavlovian response, so that every time I'd be cutting the scene or we'd be watching it back, I'd find myself doing this little wave at her. And then, I think I'm right in thinking that when I cut the scene and we sent it off to Harry and Phoebe, on the Friday, which is what we do every week, I put in a music track and then it really hit me. And I'm sort of like-

Allie: Yeah, that Alabama Shakes song.

Gary Dollner: Yeah. I think, I got a feeling-- it was something else first.

Allie: Oh, okay. Oh!

Gary Dollner: And we didn't get clearance for it.

Allie: Oh!

Gary Dollner: I've got it written down somewhere, I can't remember what it is. It was a very similar sounding acoustic-y melancholic song, but a bit happy. It did two things. It had an upbeat melody to it but it was a bit melancholic as well so for me, it was just an attempt to help score the end and I found that track, it helped elevate the hopefulness of Fleabag. And that's why I put it on, just to see what their reaction was. And I remember Phoebe going, "Oh, God, I really love. I love it, I love it." But it just was a moment that sort of seared what was already on the screen, it just, again, just lifted it. We didn't really use that much music, and certainly not a lot of cues, so then, when we found the right one, it just ... you knew you were doing it very deliberately.

Allie: Well, it's beautiful.

Gary Dollner: Yeah.

Chrissie: Yeah. People always say, because some people are like, "Oh, it's not a happy ending." But I think it is.

Gary Dollner: I think you're right. I think you're right. I mean, again, it's about hope, isn't it? I think it is. And you knew that she was going to be okay.

Allie: Exactly.

Chrissie: Yes.

Allie: Exactly. So, we have heard and loved the story about, obviously, Dollner Avenue. We don't know ... I was like, okay, that's some random place in London, I'm sure.

Chrissie: Everybody in London knows Dollner Avenue.

Allie: So, what was that like to sit down ... First of all-

Chrissie: Because that was a surprise.

Allie: Yeah, how did they do that under your nose, and then what was that moment like?

Gary Dollner: Well, that's the thing. As the editor, I know every single frame of every single edit. But what happens is, when we picture-lock an episode, a lot of the special effects or any effect work is temporary in my edit and then it gets done with the higher res files and it gets done properly and so there was an opportunity in the online that I don't attend because once I finished Fleabag, I was onto another job. And then what happens is that the actual shows get finished. So, they get dubbed and they get graded and they get onlined, and in the online, Harry and Phoebe, because I had the bus number, in my version of the edit, and they added a destination of Dollner Avenue. I had no idea because I don't attend the online. I was onto my next job.

So, I remember watching the shows as they went out. I think they were going out on Monday nights in the UK and we were on a WhatsApp group. So, there was me, Harry, Phoebe, Sarah, and Lydia, the two other producers, and when it went out, I was sitting there on my own, and when it went out I just went, [gasps] "What have they done?"

Allie: Of course. So, you saw it when everybody else saw it?

Gary Dollner: Yeah, exactly.

Allie: Wow. That's nuts.

Gary Dollner: So, then I went straight on the WhatsApp group saying, "What have you done? As if the ending wasn't sad enough already, you've gone and done this." And you know the crying emoji? I'd put loads of those on. Anyway, so then I thought, oh God, no. And that was a really sweet moment. And then I thought, I reckon everyone thinks ... maybe people think I'm a bit arrogant or a bit-

Chrissie: That you put it there.

Allie: Right, like, I was here.

Gary Dollner: ... slightly indulgent putting your own ... and I thought, what do I do now? So, then what I did, I went on to the iPlayer. I paused it, took a photo and then sent a tweet out saying something like, "Oh, as the editor of a show you know every frame and every cut, so imagine my very pleasant surprise when I watched Fleabag go out, the finale for Fleabag go out tonight and this came up on screen. Thank you very much Phoebe and the gang for that. Very sweet," sort of thing. Thought nothing of it. And then it was getting loads and loads of likes because anything that mentions Phoebe Waller-Bridge just gets pounced on. And then, the next day, some of my mates had texted and responded, and then the next day, my tweet had become a story on The Mail Online because they-

Allie: Oh, that's fun.

Gary Dollner: ... it had got a bit of traction and of course it was another thing that, rightly so, reflected what a lovely person she is because she did a shout out to the editor without the editor knowing.

Chrissie: That's so sweet.

Gary Dollner: So, yeah, it was very sweet.

Allie: That is the best story, yeah.

Chrissie: That's so fun.

Gary Dollner:l Yeah, it's nice to have a bus stop. I quite like it.

Chrissie: Too bad it got canceled, the bus.

Allie: I know, yeah.

Gary Dollner: I might have to buy myself a bus next.

Allie: Not reliable. Yeah, there you go, that's the next step.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, if the editing always goes pear shaped, maybe that's what I'll do next.

Chrissie: There you go.

Allie: It's good to have back up.

Gary Dollner: Yeah.

Chrissie: We had a couple of questions that came up on our Facebook group, or they have come up. One is, is there any specific timeline of how long season two is supposed to have, how much time is supposed to have elapsed from the dinner to the wedding?

Gary Dollner: Don't know. Good question.

Chrissie: I mean, this is a case where we're being probably way too literal. Because there are literally Reddit threads of people being like, "Well, the dinner was probably on a Saturday. And she saw him at the church on Sunday."

Gary Dollner: I mean, it has been quite a long time since I edited it, so it's been well over a year. I can't really remember. I mean, you'd probably be able to tell me much better than I could tell you. You answer that question.

Allie: Yeah, right!

Chrissie: Well, because they're like, "That's a chatty Wednesday and then something's the next day. I think they got married on a Thursday."

Allie: Oh my goodness.

Chrissie: Okay.

Gary Dollner: I don't think it's particularly time-specific.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Allie: Okay, good answer, good answer. My question, and I think we'd heard about this on our Facebook group a bit but I'm curious, will we ever get a blooper reel or deleted scenes? I know she's very good at giving us just enough and leaving us wanting more. Is there any request for you to cut something together?

Gary Dollner: No.

Allie: I figured that was the answer.

Gary Dollner: I mean, I tend to get my, if I'm working with assistants, I tend to get them to do it. But, I think Dan might have done one for the wrap party because when the shoot finishes and everyone has a party, it's nice to be able to show them ... give them a bit of feedback in terms of various clips and scenes and cuts and stuff. But yeah, I think Phoebe's a bit protective of what goes out and what doesn't go out.

Chrissie: So, we have to start working on Dan, is the note we're taking from this.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Allie: Right.

Gary Dollner: Go and pester him.

Allie: “...We hear there's a reel…” So, also we were wondering, and you've mentioned this throughout our interview, but do you have a specific favorite scene or edit from the show that just, every time, if you see it or when you think about it, you're just like, "I love that one."

Gary Dollner: I mean, I know people seem to quite like it, the lesbian one is quite a funny cut. I mean, I like the “what the fuck” one as well. That's good when you're jumping from one place to another. I mean, I think some of the things that make me laugh, they're not the actual cuts. They're the performances or the jokes or the looks. I mean, I never think a cut is that funny, not often. I mean, yeah, it's less about the actual edit, it's always about a joke or a certain performance. They're the things that make me laugh most.

One of the things that I just find totally joyous is when, I can't remember what episode. Is it five? You know they're in Godmother's house, and Dad's house, and they turned up with the flowers and she's hungover?

Chrissie: Yes.

Allie: Yes!

Gary Dollner: And the priest says he can't do it. He just can't do it. "I can't do it, I can't do it." And you know that everyone in the audience knows he's lying and then the expectation is that Godmother is going to absolutely blow up. She's never going to take this lying down. And she's really overly nice about it. Again, it's just a brilliant example of deferred gratification because they're all looking as if, what is going on? Why is she taking this so well? And then, again, throwing something away, brilliant directing because Harry didn't even cover her doing the line. It was always shot-

Allie: When she's off camera.

Gary Dollner: ... it was always in the background but she steals the scene by screaming in the background, in another room because that's how good she is. I mean, that just makes me laugh, every time.

Chrissie: I like one of our listeners who said, "There's no way the Priest didn't hear that."

Allie: Oh yeah.

Gary Dollner: Of course.

Chrissie: He was barely out the door.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chrissie: But that's another, where you were talking about winding the spring, or coiling the spring, because that--  where those flowers are ridiculous that she's holding. We know she's hung over. She's had this interaction with him, is not expecting to see him there.

Allie: Yeah, it's all perfect.

Chrissie: It's a great scene.

Allie: So, what is next for you? And I would like to add that we're loving Avenue 5, by the way.

Gary Dollner: Oh good, I'm glad you're enjoying it.

Allie: Yeah, really enjoying it. So, what's on tap for you now?

Gary Dollner: Well, I finished Avenue 5 at the end of last year, and I'm cutting a film for Disney at the moment which is very nice and very sweet and very funny. Yeah, directed by Sharon McGuire and I think it's like week four of the shoot, so still assembling that at the moment. And-

Chrissie: I was going to ask, did you work on other ... because we saw you edited the pilot for Avenue 5.

Gary Dollner: Yes.

Chrissie: Are you working on the whole series?

Gary Dollner: I did two other series, two other episodes, sorry.

Chrissie: Okay.

Gary Dollner: Yeah, yeah.

Chrissie: And you've worked with Armando Iannucci a lot.

Gary Dollner: Yes, yeah, for quite a long time actually, for 18-odd years, 19 years, something like that.

Allie: Oh wow.

Gary Dollner: So we go way back.

Chrissie: Well, it seems like with editors and creators, there's that... once you find a dynamic that works, you want to keep at it.

Gary Dollner: Yeah. He knows editing inside out. And you always know that, whenever you're on a project that he's involved in, A) it's always going to be funny and B) it's always going to be really challenging because he doesn't shoot in a normal, like most other people, there's so much material and you have to sift through lots of stuff. And there's always more than you need. Again, that's the process that he's got down to a fine art. And again, it's brilliant because it's a real challenge for the editor.

Chrissie: Yeah, well I feel he ... no, I'm just getting sidetracked. I feel like he and Phoebe also both are excellent at combining really smart humor with not afraid to do a fart joke or make it silly.

Gary Dollner: Yeah.

Allie: Right, still make it silly, too.

Gary Dollner: Well-

Chrissie: Just the idea of those coffins orbiting the ship is just ... because it's a science joke and it's a slapstick joke. It's so good.

Gary Dollner: Yeah.

Allie: Yeah.

Gary Dollner: I mean, it's knowing the fun, isn't it? It's mining that.

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: Mm-hmm. So, just to wrap up, when you're looking back at Fleabag, I know you've had some time away from it now, what is the one story that sticks out for you like 30 years from now you're telling your grandkids about working on the show? Well, maybe when they have reached a certain age.

Allie: Any nuggets?

Gary Dollner: I don't know. I mean, I suppose I would tell them it was very, very sweet for them to include me on the bus stop, that's lovely. And yeah, that's really nice. It's often-

Allie: Can't beat that.

Gary Dollner: No. I mean, it's such a compliment, so that's probably one thing that stood out, really.

Chrissie: Why do you think the show has resonated the way it has?

Gary Dollner: That's such a tough question to answer because I mean, clearly Phoebe's writing about certain issues and subjects that were, people wanted to hear and watch but it's ... and there's so much love for the character. It's a brilliant cast. It's very well written. It's funny. I mean, I'm not the right person to answer that, I would think. I think if you knew, you would do that. You'd bottle it and do it every time. But I think every now and again you just come across a project that just, it resonates, for whatever reason. It's really difficult to know why that is.

Allie: I'll tell you that when we saw Phoebe do a Q&A about The Scriptures in New York in November and she was asked the same question, she didn't answer. At first she was like, "Well, what do you think?” It's about everybody's personal relationship with the show.

Gary Dollner: Exactly. That's a better question for the audience rather than the people who make it because it's with them that it's clearly resonated so you'd have to ask all the people that love the show, I suppose.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Gary Dollner: Like you guys.

Allie: Right, yeah.

Chrissie: Exactly, exactly.

Allie: Well, and then [Chrissie] would you like to ask our last question?

Chrissie: One other thing I was just going to say is, I think that part of the reason, in the discussions on our fan group, is we can sense that you all are just wonderful people. As evidenced by how gracious and generous you've been with us here today.

Gary Dollner: Oh, shucks.

Chrissie: No, I mean, and really, every interview we see and every ... because it's one thing to have a crush and be like, "Oh, Andrew Scott's really cute," or whatever. And then, he gives an interview where he's talking about kindness and hope and connecting with creative people. And you're just like, "Oh, these are actually just really good-hearted good people." So, I think it comes through.

Gary Dollner: Well, that's lovely. That’s very nice of you to say so but I mean, yeah, the gang is ... I mean, I'm just so happy to be in the gang, to be honest.

Chrissie: Well, that's the thing. Because we did an interview with Jonathan Paul Green and you could tell, he even said, he's just a fan of the show. He just loves talking about it.

Gary Dollner: Yeah. I think we all are. Well, we all are.

Chrissie: Exactly.

Allie: That's the best. That's awesome. Well then, our very last question for you, which arguably is the most important, in my opinion, please describe Andrew Scott's little swim shorts.

Gary Dollner: They're very cute. I think they were like, there's definitely blues and reds going on.

Allie: This is good info.

Gary Dollner: But I don't want to give too much away.

Allie: That's true.

Chrissie: No, you’ve got to respect his privacy.

Gary Dollner: I mean, what goes on at the rooftop pool stays at the rooftop pool, do you know what I mean?

Allie: Got to respect that. Have to respect that.

Gary Dollner: You have to.

Chrissie: Well, on that note, thank you so much, Gary, we really can't thank you enough for taking this much time.

Gary Dollner: No, thank you.

Allie: Yes, this was wonderful.